10 Responses to November 24, 2009

1. Nick says:

   November 24, 2009 at 11:05 pm

   In my study on this topic, the Greek term “logizomai” is the English term for “reckon/impute/credit/etc,” (all terms are basically equivalently used) and when I look up that term in a popular Protestant Lexicon here is what it is defined as:—————-QUOTE: “This word deals with reality. If I “logizomai” or reckon that my bank book has $25 in it, it has $25 in it. Otherwise I am deceiving myself. This word refers to facts not suppositions.”http://tinyurl.com/r92dch—————-The Protestant Lexicon states this term first and foremost refers to the actual status of something. So if Abraham’s faith is “logizomai as righteousness,” it must be an actually righteous act of faith, otherwise (as the Lexicon says) “I am deceiving myself.” This seems to rule out any notion of an alien righteousness, and instead points to a local/inherent righteousness.The Lexicon gives other examples where “logizomai” appears, here are some examples:——————-Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude [logizomai] that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted [logizomai] as a gift but as his due.Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon [logizomai] ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.Rom 8:18 For I reckon [logizomai] that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.——————-Notice in these examples that “logizomai” means to consider the actual truth of an object. In 3:28 Paul ‘reckons’ faith saves while the Law does not, this is a fact, the Law never saves. In 4:4 the worker’s wages are ‘reckoned’ as a debt because the boss is in debt to the worker, not giving a gift to him. In 6:11 the Christian is ‘reckoned’ dead to sin because he is in fact dead to sin. In 8:18 Paul ‘reckons’ the present sufferings as having no comparison to Heavenly glory, and that is true because nothing compares to Heavenly glory.To use logizomai in the “alien status” way would mean in: (1) 3:28 faith doesn’t really save apart from works, but we are going to go ahead and say it does; (2) 4:4 the boss gives payment to the worker as a gift rather than obligation/debt; (3) 6:11 that we are not really dead to sin but are going to say we are; (4) 8:18 the present sufferings are comparable to Heaven’s glory.This cannot be right.So when the text plainly says “faith is logizomai as righteousness,” I must read that as ‘faith is reckoned as a truly righteous act’, and that is precisely how Paul explains that phrase in 4:18-22. That despite the doubts that could be raised in Abraham’s heart, his faith grew strong and convinced and “that is why his faith was credited as righteousness” (v4:22). This is also confirmed by noting the only other time “credited as righteousness” appears in Scripture, Psalm 106:30-31, where Phinehas’ righteous action was reckoned as such.

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2. don says:

   November 27, 2009 at 11:19 am

   Brother Wil,good morning. WOW!! What a comment from our catholic brother Nick! It is clear in my mind that he is repudiating imputed righteousness, this due to his misunderstanding of the chapters and verses given of Romans not to mention Genesis 15:6, also with many more such as 1 Corinthians 1:28-31, Galatians 3:6, James 2:23, which is cited from Genesis,also Titus 3:7-8. With these in mind, I don't think Nick is looking at the full context of Romans 4:13-24,that the promise was realized through faith. This makes Abraham righteuos, not because of any works that he performed, but only exercising the faith that was given to him by believing what God had promised him. (We must remember that faith is also a gift from God Ephesians 2:8-9.) So Abraham simply believed that he would have a son, and many nations would follow his footsteps by faith. This has nothing to do with our ability, and God made sure of it by waiting until Abraham was old and had no seed, and Sarah's womb was deed. Wil, I know you believe these truths,'however, we may mention to Nick that nations cannot come from a dead womb, so therefore faith must depend on the promise of God. This is why righteousness is given or imputed to Abraham. Again, he simply believed God, and this to beleive is the gift. Also in all of this it appears that Nick believes that Abraham had his own righteousness. This is the core problem in his reasoning. We must remember from scripture that all men are dead spiritually and therefore morally due of the fall, and because of this, there is no righteousness inherently within any man. I think if Nick looks closely at Romans 3:9-18 he might see his error. Apostle Paul makes it crystal clear with laboring the point that no man has any righteousness of there own, therefore no amount of work or law keeping will influence God to credit righteousness. My hope is Nick will respond with more clarity. To our catholic brother Nick. May God bless you in all of your endeavors. In Him. Don.

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3. Nick says:

   November 28, 2009 at 3:36 pm

   Hello Don!I am only "repudiating" what I see is not in harmony with Scripture. You seem to think the heart of this can be settled by looking at the full context of Rom 4:13-24, you said:"This makes Abraham righteous, not because of any works that he performed, but only exercising the faith that was given to him by believing what God had promised him. (We must remember that faith is also a gift from GodEphesians 2:8-9.)" I couldn't agree more with you! This to me points away from an imputed alien righteousness though.You went onto say: "Again, he simply believed God, and this to beleive is the gift. Also in all of this it appears that Nick believes that Abraham had his own righteousness." These two sentences need not be mutually exclusive. The gift of faith was infused by God into Abraham's soul, the exercise of this gift is an act of righteousness. So the righteousness Abraham had was a gift, but not external/alien to him.

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4. don says:

   November 29, 2009 at 8:51 pm

   Hey Nick, thanks for responding again. I hope you had a grand Thanks giving with Christ at the center! My wife and I had our Son and daughter over with "of coarse, turkey and ham along with the dressings. It was all very good! Nick, in continuing with our conversation, particularly the last paragraph, of your second response. I want to give the basic definition to the word infuse, and imputed, so that we can track each other clearly. 'If, from your comment that you mean a complete emptiness of God pouring his righteousness into the soul of Abraham apart from any human effort 'such as circumcision, or his offering of Isaac, "or in our day, the exercising of baptism, then I can except a infusion of God's righteousness, but only with discretion. However, I don't think this is your view or definition, base on these words you have said in context. "The exercise of this gift is an act of righteousness". Nick, my question to you is; Who is doing the exercising for it to be a gift, and to qualify it for righteousness? I think your definition might be in line with a blood transfusion. For example; As the body of a person receives a pint of blood from outside of it's self, it only can survive with the cooperation of the blood that was already in the body before transfusion. This would be a co-operation in survival for the body. Also you said, "So the righteousness Abraham had was a gift, but not external/ alien to him. "Brother Nick, this is a clear contradiction to what God offers us from holy writ. If righteousness is not external, then it's not a gift. It's only a gift if it's outside of ourselves receiving it from an outsider that can qualify us with the disposition of wanting to give a gift knowing the desperation of the receiver,such as us who are sinners forgiven by His grace, 'His actions; Now, because we are still sinners we can naturally conclude that imputed righteousness is a must. This imputed righteousness will be defined as God fully ascribing His character to our account declaring us not guilty of our sins. If our motive is to contribute to this finished work in any way we would be acting in self righteousness. This is the theme all through holy scripture in context to our topic, 'that is, we have no righteousness to offer, unlike the blood transfusion given in the example, and this is why I can put total weight on Romans 4:13-24/ Romans 3:10-18. So in very short conclusion; When Abraham exercised his gift of faith, this did not infuse righteousness into his soul, but only acknowledges his trust in God. We would fair well to remember that God is under no obligation to respond with our endeavors, but only from His electing, and gracious will to us that we have righteousness. "Christ righteousness" Brother Nick, I must go now. Thanks for responding. May God continue to bless you. In Him. Don.

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5. Nick says:

   November 30, 2009 at 9:57 pm

   Hello Don, When I say 'infused' I have in mind the notion that God is transforming our soul. So for example, God's love and the Holy Spirit are poured into our heart, as Rom 5:5 states. When it comes to Abraham exercising the gift of faith, it's Abe doing the exercising. Faith in itself is a good thing, so when God sees that He considers it a righteous act being performed.I don't agree with your blood transfusion example in that the blood already in the body must cooperate. Rather, there is no blood in the body, and instead it all infused. Only then can the body operate as God requires.So it is 'external' only in that it doesn't originate in us, but it is not external in that it is infused by God in us. The Indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a prime example of this. It comes from outside of us, but is given to us and operates inside of us.You said: "When Abraham exercised his gift of faith, this did not infuse righteousness into his soul, but only acknowledges his trust in God." I think you're mixed up here. The gift of faith Abraham was exercising was certainly infused. Exercising the gift is an act of righteousness.

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6. don says:

   December 1, 2009 at 3:22 pm

   Hey Nick, thanks again for your returning comments. I think there is more to be said hear, 'however, I don't have the time as of yet to respond as I should. Please be patient with me, as it may be a few days. Thanks again. May God bless you. In Him. Don.

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7. don says:

   December 4, 2009 at 12:21 pm

   Hey Nick, thanks for your patients. I have looked over our comments, and I think it would serve us well for both of us to return back to the fourth chapter of Romans in order for a clearer understanding to be gleaned so that we have a proper view of Romans 5:5 that you have chosen to use in the defense of infused righteousness, and/or the pouring out of God's love into our heart's as Romans 5:5 expresses. As we return to 4:23, it is critical that we lay this verse as the foundation in order to have the correct meaning to the rest of Paul's thoughts, concerning our topic of infused or imputed righteousness. Now at this time I must make an assertion concerning Romans 5:5, 'that is, when Paul was speaking the words, " because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us", this is not a contextual verse or a case to be built upon for infused righteousness, but it is a verse that expresses what Christ has already accomplished at the cross. That is to say, God's love was completely poured out for us at His crucifixion, expressing His passion and satisfying the legal penalty for our guilt, imputing His grace filled righteous work to our account, applying this to our hearts at the time of regeneration by the Holy Spirit. Notice that the Apostle paul is writing in past tense language here concerning Christ's work, and the work of the Holy Spirit only to bring to our attention that God's love is finished concerning all righteousness of Christ to us. Therefore, there is no infused process of righteousness other than the pouring out of Christ passion at the cross. Also notice that I mention legal penalty, only to show that this is Judicial language, and that this language of law is through out our biblical context which clearly expresses imputed righteousness. So with this in mind we can move back to chapter 4, starting with verse 23-25. From this verse of 23 we can see that Paul is showing from the written word of God that Christ's righteousness is a legal declaration to all who believe, that the supreme judge of the universe is declaring us not guilty of our sins, by imputing His righteousness to us, and our sins to Him. So in reality it is a double imputation that is expressed. This truth is expounded not just hear, but (2 Cor.5:21), (Is.53-6, which is the imputation of our sins to our Lord.) (1 Cor. 1:30) (Phil. 3:9) (Romans 5:19). Nick, I hope that this clarifies the biblical position that I have embraced. Dear Brother Nick, what's so wonderful about this great truth is the fact that God has taken care of all the requirements for salvation, and in so doing, we simply believe Him and rest in Him. May God bless you. Your friend and brother in Christ. Don.

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8. Nick says:

   December 4, 2009 at 5:16 pm

   Hello Don, thank you for your response. I don't think I'd build my case from Rom 5:5 alone, there are plenty of other passages (esp Romans 8). I don't see how God could pour his love "into our hearts" at the cross, nor could the Spirit have been given then either, it doesn't make sense. It must be talking about the moment of salvation, and Galatians 3A speaks this way.As for judicial language, I don't think that really proves anything because Paul's focus in Rom 4 is to contrast the law to the promise given to Abraham. You quoted quite a few passages, but I'd like to stop on one for now, Phil 3:9. Here Paul says just how salvation took place: "10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead." In otherwords, Paul is saying he's experiencing salvation by God's power transforming his soul.

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9. don says:

   December 6, 2009 at 6:51 pm

   Dear brother Nick. I think we have come to the final conclusion in our discussion. Even though we don't agree with each other concerning the righteousness of Christ, 'that by way of infused or imputed; May it be that we gain another step closer to see a clearer glimpse of the glory of God as we sharpen one another from the holy scriptures, and on that precious day we see Him face to face. Nick, may we only let this disagreement be that Rock for us to step fearlessly into the truth of God's word in order to know Him as He really is. Nick, I thank you much for being that iron of sharpening, and please continue to read the KAYELTON GROUP quotes as to dispute or encourage. May God give us another opportunity to grow in His grace. In Him. Don.

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10. Nick says:

    December 8, 2009 at 1:52 pm

    Thank you Don. God Bless. Merry Christmas!

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